Choice and Celebration of Life

The murder of yet another doctor in US who performed medical terminations of pregnancies under medically advisable and within legally valid circumstances, sparked a huge furor on the internet with heated arguments. One side went on with emphasizing the law that the doctor worked within, as well as explaining the various circumstances that made it necessary. Risk to the life of mother, the various reasons which might render a fetus unviable, and so on. It was mostly uselesss in terms of making any difference to those who couldn't care less what happens to a woman.

The other, anti abortion and mostly misogynist side, not only completely ignored the very existence of a woman but often had more and quite horrible things to say - why doesn't she kill herself (and this is a pro life argument), rapes are inevitable, rapes are biochemical and hence scientific (this person went on major abusive offensive claiming to be a scientist, but did not stop to reflect on the fact that a biochemical disease might all too easily remedied while he thought it was inevitable, so it reflected his culture really; if it is biochemical get them vaccinated, drug to counter the effect, an antiviagra so to speak, but no, he thought and said rapes were only natural, and said he was being scientific), .... unimaginably horrible agenda of annihilation of women, of love or joy, of life itself, of humanity and of civilisation, of all progress since the days when women used to die as a routine in childbirth. They have the temerity to name it pro life and the other, the side that never loses sight of basic human rights for all, lets them have the false label. The anti abortionists really are pro death.


After a number of posts denying that the church or the faith has anything to do with this, a post goes on the offensive in the belief it will terrify the general public into giving up their liberty agenda and flock to the church in hope of being not condemned, as the rest of the humanity (non church going ones) are bound to be according to the church. But the post has the effect of cancelling all denials of the right wing anti abortionists regarding the murderer being associated with them.


While on this discussion I was unaware of the further developments, and soon after closing this came to know about the other recent murders by another right wing nut - they are this time busy calling him left wing rather than denying he was supported by rigth wing organisations or that they were associated with him - and the now exposed fact of the ws groups proliferation across US with weapons et al. I had posted about it on some intuition unawares, just on the what made sense looking at the anti abortion posts frenzy, and was horrified at the reality, am dismayed at the mindlessness disease spreading across the much loved country, the first nation.


What follows is some of the pertinent posts, although there are more, but it is difficult to give all.
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"So you deny original sin? How can you say an aborted human is saved without having faith? Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God. If they had no chane to hear the Word of God, and receive faith, they will go to hell. Original sin dictates that. " C**y.



C**y just happened to justify the lumping of all church goers with this murder, by giving the dogma that justifies it, and nullified the protests of those that would like to keep faith without being lumped with the terrorist killing.

Really, stupid people on your side do more harm than intelligent enemies.
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The terrorost right wingers need not have pulled the trigger if he were not within law, a hundred or even one complaint to the law with evidence or proof or witness would have taken him out of circuit with reputation gone and a jail sentence and license revoked.

That he had to be murdered by the misogynist anit abortion terrorists is a strong proof that he was not doing anything illegl or unethical.

Post murder, it is only a propaganda tool to go on insisting he was doing un approvable things, purpose being to shut up the clamour for justice.

In any case, the law will take its course and unless someone does not believe he won't be given up for mob lynching (which is a right wing tool too) to the prochoice people (yes I can just see the people who are in reality prolife, the label being stolen by the opposite side, stoning the murderer!) there is really no reason to go on trying to convince people he was wrong so the murder was no big deal.

Except this - the right wing plans to have the murderer be released with minimum punishment as a lone nut and this requires a propaganda, so later the killer will be a hero of the right wing, and the women will die in pregnancy as the right wing wants them to all along.

This explains the strange behaviour of those posting to the effect that the doctor was doing illegal stuff, and that the killer was a lone nut, and there is no terrorism. They do not wish to be caught, have their cells dismantled, their persona and personnel and weapons caches identified.

It is war against US society, liberty, rights. Recognising it as such is necessary so it can be dealt with.
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The anti abortionist arguments on this page are entirely selfish, arrogant and ignorant. They all assume it is a picnic and thoughtless affair, while they give no thought to possibility that the doctors know about medical facts, about risk to the mother's life, about the viability of the fetus, if the child will ever be able to take care for oneself for doing anything at all, .. no, no thought at all. If the mother goes into a coma, paralysis, the child is handicapped, they couldn't care less. None of them have ever seen such realities of life, and most of them have never diapered a baby even a normal one. Not one of them have faced risk of death to give birth, or have carried a baby due to rape. And they couldn't care less about those that are in that situation. To call themselves "prolife" is not only hypocritical, it is downright false flattery.

If ever a male of the human species had his life endangered by a fetus, or even inconvenienced by a baby, the whole ethic of institutional religions would be very different.

It is easy and cheap to discount lives, risks, pains and dangers to lives of others, when you can never experience even the normal dangers they - women - go through to be a parent, much less the far more riusky or dangerous - or worse circumstances.

When all handicapped children are cared for by male priests and preachers with responsibility for life, with no community help for the purpose, and when they also take care of rape victims as long as needed and the women who are in coma or paralysis due to unviable pregnancies, they might have an iota of comprehension. Legal responsibility and physical with no woman helper.

the abortions are not forced on anyone, minority or otherwise. The word is CHOICE, and often it is a traumatic one made with many considerations.

Anyone who wants women to not make such a choice - to start with have a culture that celebrates the wonder of birth and conception rather than the horrible quotes from "born in sin" (everyone, according to your priests) or the very derogatory "man that is born of woman" as if men could choose to be born of beasts or birds, preferebly. Horrible stuff, and being brought up with that, no wonder women have a heavy burden in your culture, being told they are sinful by being born, unimporatant by being women, and sinful in being pregnant rather than revered for being mothers and respected for their potential for being mothers.

Great art is not born of whipcracking and bondage. Humans are not less than art. If you wish more women to give birth celebrate motherhood, respect women, strike out the offending quotes up there and their like, and learn to celebrate birth as a matter of gratitude to the mother.
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Amazing - this discussion, and the amount of duplicity I have seen in the right wing posts.

There is repeated denial of this being anything related to anyone while there is an urgency to have it declared a lone nut private act (why the insistence if the fbi won't find any organisational support anyway, which they won't if it did not exist? but they might if it did, hence the urgency).

There is repeated ignoring of the medical facts posted by doctors and mothers who have been through the horrendous ordeals, and too of the repeated posts of one person about the legality to the effect that KS would only allow late term mtp under life threatening circumstances or if the fetus is not viable and was never going to be so.

There are repeated posts by some people with the same argument or propaganda repeated on and on, and one repeats the church dogma in capital letters to threaten and browbeat people to say that there is only one choice possible (without admitting they are anti choice, a clear implication of the post).

There is the suggestion by at least one post to the effect that a woman instead of terminating a pregnancy should kill herself, with no concern there for the fetus if she does, which really says that anti abortion and anti choice people are really pro death.

And then the most brutal, subhuman post by someone repeatedly abusing which begins with the this-is-lone-nut agenda and goes on to assert that rapes are inevitable, there is nothing anyone anywhere can do about it; the post then comes back to abuse some more and post bio chemical justification excusing rapes (why not find a vaccine and innoculate male populations, at least those likely to commit the crime, by testing - if it is only biochemistry, and not a social and church tacit sanction of rape for the perpetrator while the victim is hurled into hell by mostly all but the pro choice people? ) - which then escalates the offense to find out my identity by questioning my qualifications (did the rape approver think I would be so stupid as to fall for it, by giving my identity and proving my qualifications, so they could next come shoot me and my colleagues, family, and so on? HA!).

What has been heartening is the fact that majority of posts were for the women, and even more against the murder.

Whether anyone likes it or not, fact is, no one likes or wants an mtp later - most people who want it for other reasons (and there are plenty in a society that does little to educate males against rapes or church that speaks not against it or law that does little enough preventive), have it done as soon as possible, when there is little awareness or connection and the fetus really going through the elementary evolution. The later it gets, the more the awareness, the connection, and the trauma even psychologically, besides the horrendous health hazards.

But the need to or advisability to perform a late term mtp arises due to the new technologies that can determine if the fetus is in fact not viable due to a lack of say brains, lungs, or something - or the cases where the mother's health is adversely affected to the point where she is in danger for her life.

These new technologies make it possible to save the mother when in fact saving the fetus might not be possible - it might be born dead, or die after birth, or bring about the death of hte mother and die in the process.

The right wing, the church, the anti abortion crazies do not wish to understand reality, which is that if abortions were banned or reduced, it would not give them the blue eyed blond babies they are desperate for (they really couldn't care less about the unwanted "other" children, plenty available for adoption in US, millions unwanted. or for that matter the millions starving in Africa or forced abortions in China which no one is protesting about, in fact the abti abortionist terrorists of US tacitly approve of the abortions in China since that contains the population of another race) - in reality if abortions were not easy to find as and when needed, women would begin to die and be injured severely in large numbers, and that won't help anyone whose agenda is life. It would, of course, help those whose agenda is enslaving well over half of humanity - other races and their own women, the major components to begin with. So really the anti abortion is anti choice, anti life, pro slavery and even pro death.

Fortunately people are not so easy to enslave any longer, if the discussion is any indication. Which is exactly why they, the right wing crazies, have descended to murders, false propaganda, terrorism and denial.


They being the right wing crazies, of course. Perhaps they don't look look crazy, when you meet them. But wanting to return to dark ages, is a crazy agenda. Terrorism for the purpose makes them dangerous, not normal.
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If any of the church affiliated groups, people, authorities, whatever, are truly sincere about their protest and campaigns against abortions being only due to to their concern about sanctity of life, how do any of them reconcile with the hypocrisy of their position vis-a-vis the very well known facts of the world?

In China for a few decades now women have been forced to abort. No church has thundered about the sin of the government, or instructed its followers to boycott Chinese merchandise, much less protest at the consulates or at the UN or anywhere. In fact I have heard people - respectable, good middle class Archie Bunkers of US - approve of it since it helps keep the population down in China. Right wing and church racism?

Look at the non protest against perfectly good food that could feed humans being instead wasted elsewhere and even more waste in terms of land that could grow such food for human consumption.

Everyone has been aware of the starvation in Africa for the last few decades with dying populations including children and pregnant women. Yet the much tom tom of charity is at the private discretionary level, while no church or right wing life loving groups have ever protested against the waste of millions of acres across the rich countries devoted to feeding pigs for fattening for rich consumers, making fuel for luxury of driving gas guzzlers, or for alcohol making of all sorts - liquor, wine, et al. Yet it is clear that no one dies of alcohol deprivation and pigs could be lean and fed leftovers (chaff, stalks, whatever) for better health of the consumers while the corn could be sent to Africa. And vehicles might do better with solar batteries, at any rate they won't stop or suffer without corn fed to them via ethanol - corn that could help Africa survive.

Not a peep from the right wing against any of this, no thundering by the church against the sin of rich nations indulging in luxuries (fat meat, alcohol, coffee, chocolate, ...) while Africa starved for over three decades in millions. That was not life enough for the right wing?

In the more religious nations, central Europe, particularly Germany or even Austria, a new person who is taken sick will find it extremely difficult to get any over the counter medicine or other needs one normally gets from a pharmacy or a drug store. One needs to know which one is open and how to get there, if it happens to be after 4 p.m. Saturday on weekend, else suffer miserably - and the same is true if you happen to need milk for your children, even a baby, by any chance. In fact in the latter case your only hope is either a gas station or a large train station, possibly an airport.

When questioned, they are indignant about "this is religion, you cannot attack this" - but there are people of other religions in the country who might instead close shops on Saturday or Friday or whenever and keep them open on Sunday, which is not allowed by law. Yet restaurants and pubs are open throught the day to late night, so no one suffers from any shortage of alcohol. As for the excuse that this is a family togetherness day, so shops should close, what about the families of restaurant and pub workers, train operators, planes, train stations and airports? No, it does not wash. So your baby could suffer without milk if you are so misfortunate as to visit the country without awareness of this, or you might if you happen to visit on Saturday afternoon and are sick and need a common aspirin or cold cure, but that is not church's problem, while alcohol runs plenty free and there is no discouraging it. And yet the continental nations are suppposedly secular.

UK is far more relaxed and shopping does not make one anxious nor does one need a wife only for the purpose of shopping. Shops might close or open as per convenience of Athe shopkeepers, normally. No one - not even liberals - in the continent, though, admit the shop closures with rare exceptions (gas stations, large train stations, ..) as possibly not quite life friendly, possibly not so friendly to children or families or babies. I have heard flippant claims to the effect that wine might save life while milk could be dangerous, instead! And if you are ill, new to the country, a hotel employee who is supposed to be on duty will flat out declare you won't have any help since it is Sunday evening, all closed.

How about your own neighbourhood, is it all pubs or do you have pharmacies and shops selling life's necessities including provisions needed for children and babies? Do you have any thought about the Chinese and African, the human food going to pigs unnecessarily, the corn ethanol, et al? Chances are if you do you are not right wing. Herein lies the hypocrisy of the right wing. Ever heard anyone protest against any of this from the pulpit?

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If it is about sanctity of life, then unless all life is considered sacrosanct this is hypocrisy. Obviously life being sacred is a concept that gives way to other considerations, such as need or even greed of food.

One needs meat in arctic lands and weather but hardly in plush farming areas in seasons of plenty, and certainly not where there are well stocked supermarkets around; besides most don't hunt or fish themselves for food, and as such there is a tremendous waste of life to feed a small amount thereof to a populations shopping in supermarkets.

No church has spoken against this wanton destruction of life and consequent waste (which brought in BSE for example by trying to feed cattle unnatural food), even the wiping out of whole species in the ocean by trawlers in greed for money. As such sanctity of life is not where it is at.

Again, no one punishes a laboratory for throwing away fertilised eggs, in fact there are court battles where the would be eager mother is denied access to the fertised eggs either by the court after her partner's death or by the partner going to court because he is fighting to keep from paying child support, and the fertilised eggs then are destroyed.

If abortion is murder so is this, so the people demanding or allowing this for considerations of not paying child support are guilty, the court is guilty, and the church extremely guilty of not having spoken out in defence of the said fertilised eggs, thundering against their destruction or demanding they be implanted in the would be (and genetic) mother. Hence the church position about abortions is hypocritical, at best, and anti women at foundation of the whole anti abortion thundering.

And if one has to go by science, the stages of evolution of the human life from a fertilised egg to a full grown viable fetus do matter, it is not all equal. The embryo practically goes through the stages of evolution of life from cells to human until it is born, and there is good reason why mtp is considered less of a trauma or risk during the first few weeks - natural miscarriages during early periods are less of a trauma, less health risk, and they occur in nature all the time too.

If any stage has to be considered as specific therefore it has to be birth - (there is a good reason for natural childbirth, until the fetus is ready even the most fed-up-with-heavy-carrying woman is helpless and the birth happens only when the new life is willing to be a person -) when the new born takes a first breath on its own and now needs to be fed as a person, no more the umbilical cord bringing ready nutrition from the mother's body, but the next stage of bringing another form of ready nutrition from the mother's body through her milk that the infant has to feed with its own efforts and will.

From birth to the stage where the child is able to eat, walk, live alone, work, cook, and take care of its own progeny, the growth is a continuous process with increasing ability to do on one's own but never a time when parents are totally redundant - when you have your own children, too, often parents can offer good sound advice and support on parenting not to mention support system to the grandchildren.

No one has ever advised or declared to the effect that when a child is grown up enough to support oneself then the father might be given up to death with strangers making that decision to deny him life saving medical procedures, and saying that a mother ought to give birth even at risk of her own death is not less of a horror - it ought to be her own choice, her own decision. It will not only be her life at stake, it will also likely be her very handicapped infant now orphaned, and it is not for strangers to decide this is to be so.

So it cannot be about when life begins, or church, or strangers, but has to be about the medical expert advice to the mother helping her to make an informed decision. Birth can be the only point where a child is in fact separate, until then it is more than connected, it is entirely dependent on the mother. And a mother is very connected, attached, so such a decision is not just a health hazard, it is also a trauma, and can only be made when she is in danger or the fetus is known to the medical authorities to be severly lacking viability - without brain, without lungs, dead already, ectopic, any of the hundreds of things that might go wrong that make it advisable to terminate the pregnancy and thereby save one out of the two connected people.

After all, when twins with shared brains or body parts are born, they are not demanded by the church - or by bunches of medically illiterate presumptous pompous idiots - to remain joined together due to God's will or danger to one from the separation, but do instead get to have doctors make an effort to separate them with the best possible effort made to save both. Late term mtp is such an effort to save at least one when the other is not viable.

One might speak of soul, rather than life with less hypocrisy, since obviously (as given at length above) considerations of life have many other facets. Life is not where is it at even with human gestation, else there should be no natural terminations of pregnancies in early or even later stages.

Soul rushes in at birth, if at all.
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